MNMD - Numinus CEO Payton Nyquvest On Transforming Healthcare With Psychedelics

2023-03-05 15:00:00 ET

Summary

• Mental health may be our biggest health issue and traditional medicine has had limited success in treating it.
• Psychedelic compounds have been healing people for thousands of years but there are challenges around how to properly service the public.
• Numinus CEO Payton Nyquvest discusses focusing on profitability and the need for service providers to be able to offer various psychedelic therapies.
• Possible FDA approval of MDMA this year would be a huge catalyst.

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Transcript

Rena Sherbill: Okay, Payton, welcome to psychedelics, psychedelic coverage on The Cannabis Investing Podcast. Really happy to have you on the show. So thanks for taking the time and joining us.

Payton Nyquvest: Really grateful to be here. Thanks for having me.

RS: Yeah, thanks for coming on. So talk to us about how you got to the psychedelic industry, how you decided to come on board at Numinus ( NUMIF ). I'd love to hear kind of -- let listeners have a chance of how -- what journey brought you here?

PN: Yeah, I really come to this space as a patient first and foremost. Going back to very early childhood struggled with chronic pain. And that kind of led me on this path of trying to understand what was happening with my chronic pain. But in my very early teens, I also started to become very dedicated on dealing with the kind of mental health side of that and realizing that there was a correlation between my chronic pain and my mental health as well. And that kind of led me on a journey of really trying to exhaust as many options as possible to try and deal with this chronic pain issue that I was having.

And started to become something of a mental health advocate in my community, and not because I was aiming to do that. But I saw a lot of friends that could benefit from maybe some of the work that I was doing. And similarly, I didn't want to be the only kid in therapy as a teenager. But that kind of continued to transition into my professional career where really, no matter what I was doing, my chronic pain unfortunately continued to get worse and worse to the point where a number of years ago, I was getting hospitalized about three days a week, and was really out of options.

I grew up in a family that had struggled with substance abuse and so I never had a psychedelic experience before. I was always kind of the anti-recreational drug person but ended up turning to psychedelics really as a last ditch effort to try and save my saved my life and not to create the picture of a panacea, because I typically like to say that that's really when the work started. But with psychedelics, I never had any chronic pain symptoms ever again, and I came out of that experience, really just trying to figure out how I could give back to something that saved my life. I didn't intend on starting a company and doing everything that we'd done.

But when I was trying to figure out whether I could make a philanthropic donation, or what was the best way to support, was having meetings with MAPS and people at Health Canada, and at the time, there was really no, call it corporate interest in the psychedelic space. It was primarily academic and not for profit groups. And the thing I just kept hearing from all these different groups was there was a real need for infrastructure.

There was a real need for who was going to help not only support research, but how was all this good work that was being done through clinical trials, how was all of that going to be transitioned into a model that would be accessible for people? That's really what inspired the creation of Numinus and the path that we've taken since those early days.

RS: So it's interesting, covering the cannabis sector as well as the psychedelic sector. I've always been struck, and I continue to be struck by the personal connection that so many people get into it. That's the catalyst that that inspires them to actually get into it. And I feel like that adds another layer to the people leading the companies, which I find interesting, and you don't see that in a lot of sectors. Can you speak also to the professional side and your background there and what you're bringing to the table on that end?

PN: Yeah, sure. I my kind of professional pathway was I started in finance. I typically say don't hold that against me. That's just how I ended up here. But I started my career at Canaccord on the independent banking side. I was there for about five or six years, left there, was part of a group that bought a control position in a smaller independent brokerage firm called Jordan Capital and helped manage Jordan for a couple years before we sold that firm to Mackie Research and I ran Mackie's Vancouver office and I was a director of the across Canada firm. I also sat on the Advisory Board for the TSX.

And for, I would say how that's been an interesting sort of pathway to now with Numinus. When I created Numinus, the plan was actually never to take it public. I didn't even think that, that was going to be a possibility, especially in the timeframe that how quickly things have moved. But this -- it's interesting, we call it like a psychedelic industry. To be honest, I don't know if that's fully accurate.

I think we're, we're in the mental health space, and psychedelics are a tool in the mental health toolbox. But you're seeing this really big paradigm shift in healthcare, and in particular mental health, and it's pulling from a lot of different sectors, whether it be technology, healthcare, regulatory reform, and I think to your comment around the kind of personal connection, there's so many nuances to this space that you just really can't quite understand, unless you're really integrated into all of the kind of different aspects of what psychedelic therapy is, and what's necessary in order to really support.

RS: Yeah, I think that's right. And speaking to your point about the notion between kind of the more biotech side of -- for lack of a better term -- the psychedelic industry, which is more like the drug discovery, the drug development side of things, and then there's the therapy and wellness, which Numinus seems more a part of. Can you -- or more focused on I should say, I think. Can you speak to -- especially coming at it from a financial background, which we won't hold against you, especially this isn't an investing podcast. So we support conscious capitalism here.

PN: Appreciate that.

RS: So will you speak to us a little bit about how you were looking at the space and what you thought, from that conscious capitalist perspective, what might work in terms of helping humanity and then also helping the bottom line?

PN: It's interesting, I think if you think about maybe zooming out a little bit, you look at the mental health, which mental health situation we're in at the moment, which I would say is the largest societal issue, that we currently struggle with, and unfortunately, it doesn't matter what indication or what you look at. Things continue to get worse and worse. And unfortunately, COVID has made that exponentially more so. And you also haven't seen any significant innovation in mental healthcare since the invention of SSRIs and antidepressants, which is over 50 years ago. And now we're seeing, while they certainly have their place, we've now seen significant limitations in regards to some of those different modalities as well. So from a very kind of binary problem and opportunity standpoint, it's massive.

I think in regards to the approach with Numinus and you've kind of seen two call it pathways in which people have looked to support the psychedelic space. It's either been through, as you mentioned, like a more biotech drug development pathway, or it's more the kind of service provider side of things. And Numinus, we continue to support research and we think that that's extremely important.

The challenge we ran into, or the challenge that I saw early on from a value creation standpoint is that this isn't typical biotech drug development, even down to typically when you're when you're developing a new drug, or a novel drug that people have never heard of before, you get patents and IP, and there's protection, and then there's the process of educating the market on what the drug is.

Everybody knows what psychedelics are. There's a lot of education and these are compounds that have been used in a healing context, we now know for over 7,000 years. So in terms of opportunities to create some kind of protection around that they're very limited. And where we can continue to see the opportunity was kind of regardless of what drug gets approved or which pathway gets approved from, the need for service providers, to be able to actually offer these different products to clients is going to be necessary and benefit from any and all kinds of approval.

And that was where we saw. Frankly we're kind of doing research at the moment to prove what we've known for a very long time. There's a reason why these compounds have still been used in healing contexts for thousands of years is they've continued to be effective. But I think what we do know is that there's challenges around trying to figure out how to properly support this work and administer and offer it to clients. And so we do that through our own clinic network. But we also have a full CRO where we're able to help carry out those clinical trials.

And what that allows us to do is not only support research, but it also allows our clinics to kind of look into the future a little bit. And as we run those clinical trials within our own clinics, we're able to ideate and innovate our clinic model to be prepared for when those drugs are approved. And then we naturally start to become a service provider of choice for all of those drug development companies that now have a drug approved, but need trained therapists and a clinic staff that understands how to work with these compounds and how it works with drugs storage, and billing and training and all those aspects that are necessary in order for those different drug developers to actually get a drug offered in market.

RS: So would you say that you're looking at the business model as for when legalization happens, and in the meantime, I would say maybe you're developing sort of a top shelf wellness approach?

PN: Yeah, I think it's kind of both, to be honest. We're offering ketamine-assisted psychotherapy at the moment. Very proud to say we get about 80% of our ketamine services are covered under insurance. But also we've helped make some pretty significant regulatory changes up in Canada, with the special access drug program, and been able to work with industry leaders like MAPS and other drug developers to carry out their clinical trials, which helps provide access to people who are able to be enrolled in those clinical trials and get us prepared for when these drugs are approved.

But the other part of that, that I think gets overlooked a lot of the time and is a very necessary part of our model, is it's really not as easy with these different interventions as just offering people psychedelic therapy and setting them on their way. In the same context usually the best way to explain it is if you think about a knee surgery, the more prehab that you can do being prepared for when you're going into that intervention. And the more rehabilitation you can do after the fact, the more successful the surgery is going to be.

The other side of that is, if you do new, no preparation. You go in for knee surgery, you eat bad food, sit on the couch, and then one day decide that you're going to get up and go skiing, the potential for a negative outcome, and to end back up in the surgeon's chair, again is probably quite high. And that's extremely important, I think, especially in the early days of rolling out these different therapies is that you need to try and ensure highest quality outcomes for -- I mean, you should always try and ensure highest quality outcomes for clients, but especially early where a lot of the success of these treatments is going to be based off of the results that people are seeing in clinic.

And for drug developers in particular who are looking to sell drug products, they need to ensure the highest quality and highest possible outcome for clients so that there's a market that continues to be encouraged and excited about these new therapies that are coming online.

RS: So do you feel that in terms of the therapeutic approaches, it's dependent on what the patient is looking for, and that's also part of the business model?In terms of that you're not focused on one psychedelic approach?

PN: Correct. Yeah, we see multiple approaches being available. And we've seen that even with ketamine. We offer a wide array of ketamine protocols and different indications. And I think that will probably continue with some of the different psychedelic compounds. Obviously, insurance coverage is going to be a big part of that. But similarly, I think you've got to see different models of care to create varying levels of accessibility for people as well.

RS: And is that being fed by like the decision in terms of focusing on a multi, I guess, pronged approach or different approaches, with different psychedelics? Is that based off of the research that you're doing?

PN: Yeah, certainly seeing it in research. And not only that, but as I mentioned, with ketamine, we're also seeing it in clinical practice too. There's -- we see lots of different opportunities in regards to how these therapies are administered, but also what kind of preparation and support different people need. And that's going to be extremely paramount, and integral to understanding a client's care path when we're talking about these protocols.

It's not really -- there's no real cookie cutter approach, while certainly you can kind of develop different protocols based off of different indications, the nuances of every human being a little bit different in regards to their mental health journey, you've got to try and offer as much optionality as possible, while you know, making sure that there's consistency in regards to the experience that clients or patients are having, so that they're not having to run all over the place and talking to different people in order to try and help with their mental health. And that's where I think you're seeing a consolidation, frankly, more broadly, in the mental health space as well.

RS: I'd also be interested in hearing about your working with MAPS. Intrinsic Analysis is an author on Seeking Alpha that's covered Numinus for a while and pointed to that as one of the reasons early on, as kind of being a evidence of you guys having strong research capabilities that MAPS would want to partner with Numinus so early on. Can you speak to how that partnership developed and how you're working with them?

PN: Yeah, Rick and I met a number of years ago, and I would say philosophically, looked at the space very similarly. And I think with MAPS in particular, obviously the work that they've done stewarding MDMA through the clinical trial pathway over the last 35 years. We all are here because of the work that MAPS has done. And so there was a real ambition on my side to being able to support the works that that MAPS is doing, and ways that we could collaborate. But similarly and I think now, more importantly than ever before, MAPS is now staring at MDMA being approved by the FDA within the next 12 months.

And you've got now a need for a huge amount of trained therapists and and infrastructure that can offer that therapy. And it's just way too much for a drug developer to be able to get that drug approved, and then expect them to build all of the infrastructure to be able to administer the therapy. And I think, as a part of that partnership we've -- as you mentioned, we've been able to carry out some of the clinical trial work that MAPS is doing, and been able to forge a deep partnership with them not just on the clinical trial, but also the training of practitioners and therapists.

And I think over the coming couple months, you'll probably see a lot more in regards to probably deeper ways in which MAPS and Numinus are working together now that we're in on sort of the five yard line of being able to commercialize and offer MDMA therapy.

RS: And in terms of focusing on kind of training the practitioners and recruiting new ones, and really increasing the quality of care that patients are receiving, can you speak to in terms of investors looking at companies and wondering what they should be focused on? One of the things if you're looking across the industry is that companies are pre-revenue , that cash flow is a real concern.

Can you speak about the notion of balancing those two things in terms of spending and investing and then also looking towards revenue and profitability?

PN: Yeah, and I think, highlighted by our most recent financials , we're very proud of the work that we've done and being able to demonstrate a very clear path to profitability. That's always been the focus of the company from the very beginning is, how do we get profitable and be able to scale off of profitability as quickly as possible. I think unfortunately we've now seen in the space as well that more money might equal more problems for some folks. And while having a strong balance sheet is important, and we've been able to secure that as well, you really just got to deeply understand the space.

And that just takes time and commitment, and I think Numinus has far and away the most amount of expertise. And from that frankly, time spent understanding this space and offering a diverse amount of therapy, and being involved with all of these different clinical trials, not just with MAPS, but we now are involved with Usona and Psilocybin. We're carrying out the clinical trials for MindMed ( MNMD ) and their LSD studies. And so that expertise has been paramount. And I think as now as we look forward, we've been able to demonstrate this path to profitability, and we see a real opportunity for scale and growth built off of that ability to execute operate. That has been really necessary.

And some of your cannabis listeners will probably resonate with this too. But bigger and flashier doesn't necessarily always mean sustainability. And that's what we've always really drive towards. And we're now at a point where we've been able, as I mentioned, to demonstrate that and create a platform that that can grow and scale effectively and cost effectively. And frankly, at a time where it's needed now more than ever before, and at a time, where we're now starting to see a number of these different drugs getting very, very close to approval. So it's very, very exciting time for the space.

RS: Yeah, I would say that flashy, flashy and loud, usually almost equates to the opposite. Yeah. In terms of the space growing and developing, and you spoke to some of the points of the catalysts coming up, what would you say -- would you say that there's a catalyst or a series of clinical trials, that those results -- I mean anybody kind of looking at mainstream media, also in the investing space, also broadly speaking, in terms of psychedelics getting coverage, there's a lot of psychedelic coverage.

But if you're looking as an investor at the companies, it's hard to navigate the likelihood of success, I think, even if you can point to the fact that it's definitely reaching a critical mass. How would you speak to investors in terms of, are there upcoming catalysts? Will there be a point where we see share prices kind of match up to the promise of what a company is promising, I guess?

PN: I think, absolutely. I think a couple of things from a catalyst side of things. And obviously, I'm a little bit biased. But the reason why we also built Numinus in the way that we have is we do benefit from, as I mentioned, any and all forms of approval and drug approval. And we're at this kind of unique time at the moment where MAPS is going to announce their Phase 3b results, probably in the next couple of months, which they've already indicated, will be in line with the Phased 3a results, which were spectacular. And they've got a timeframe of MDMA being approved through the FDA within the next 12 months.

I think that is, obviously that's probably the largest catalyst that I think is out there for the space. But in the meantime, you've seen -- you've now seen Australia, legalize MDMA and psilocybin therapy. You've seen huge advancements in Canada, and you've now seen states on a state by state level start to regulate psilocybin for therapy as well. So I think there's going to be very large moments like the MAPS results and ultimately kind of timeline, exact timeline for approval.

But I think if you look at the momentum from a regulatory change standpoint, it's huge. And now seeing insurance, more and more insurance coverage come into the space you're starting to see now, I think we're in the probably the final month of consolidation that has been long and frankly, I think necessary in the space. And I think what's emerged from that is business models like ours that have shown the ability to execute and build things of real value. And now going forward, it's a number of these different pieces, whether it's drug approval, whether it's clinical trial results, this year, you're -- I think you're going to see a lot of different factors really starting to come into play. And frankly, really only a few places that are able to capture that value and benefit from it.

RS: Do you think that opens up that capital investment into the space?

PN: Absolutely. And I've seen, especially over the last couple of months, I would say, the capital and the conversations we have is very large and sophisticated capital. That didn't come in on the kind of first kind of big wave in regards to psychedelics. There was -- it was a little bit more patient capital that was waiting to see how the dust was going to settle and I think, are now getting very active, and starting to become much more involved in the space. And I think that's going to be also a very large catalyst on the kind of financial side, or capital market side of the space as well.

RS: In terms of navigating this time, and this also is similar to the cannabis industry as well positioned and well -- companies with good strategies, they still have to navigate this downturn, and this capital crunch. As a public company, do you find that -- or I guess I should just ask, how do you find navigating that as a public company in terms of not diluting the shareholder capital and also having enough money to survive? How do you kind of navigate that?

PN: Yeah we were fortunate to be able to capitalize, when times were good, and raised just over $80 million, and still have a very strong and healthy balance sheet. And from my experience in capital markets, frankly there was certainly a time where things were feeling like they were getting maybe a little bit ahead of themselves. And so we were able to capitalize on that and raised a significant amount of money, knowing that good times don't necessarily always last.

And I think you've now seen, not just in the psychedelic space, but frankly, no sector has worse performed over the last couple of years in the healthcare space, which really doesn't make any sense considering where we've been at in regards to COVID. And obviously, all of the different mental health challenges that are out there. So I think, probably the healthcare space is what leads us out of this downturn. And you're starting to see that momentum now. And I think we're now in a place where we also don't need to run back to raise money, as soon as you see an uptick in the space, whereas a lot of other companies in the space are, are getting very, very tight for cash, and there'll be a rush to the trough to raise money is as soon as there's some positivity there. And we'll be able to kind of let things move a little bit and run, and don't have any big requirements to raise capital in the near term in at least for the next couple of years.

RS: Can you expand on how you see healthcare bringing the investors out of the downturn or the companies out of the downturn?

PN: Yeah, I think as I mentioned, the worst, the most depressed sector for sure is healthcare. And again, if I just look from a massive problem and need for solutions, healthcare is it and these days it doesn't matter who or where you're having a conversation, the conversation around healthcare and in particular mental health is one that everybody is having at the moment and you're seeing massive regulation changes happening and things like that, because the regulators have also seen that there's a huge issue that is not getting solved. And that's now affecting people professionally as well.

You look at the amount of resources currently that companies are spending and are going towards trying to support their employees, or similarly, the amount of turnover and challenges people are having with hiring and keeping people on because people are struggling. And I think, as we know, COVID has greatly expedited that. But I think we're only now and we'll so see for the foreseeable future, really the issues that COVID created for us from a mental health perspective. And if we're going to be able to have a workforce that is healthy and feeling inspired and wanting to contribute, we've got to solve some of these issues around mental health.

RS: Is it something that you're in dialogue... I mean, I know that pharma and healthcare have their eyes on the psychedelic space - are you in touch with other company leaders? Are you in dialogue with people in those industries about how to kind of best work together?

PN: For sure. I think that's where I see a very large opportunity, frankly, is the what I was talking about is the need for industry knowledge and specialization, who is really keenly focused on building this space the large healthcare service providers are definitely very, very closely looking at the space. And they're looking to see who has kind of, quote-unquote, figured it out, that they can either acquire partner with, or look to support within their own infrastructure. And, and I think you're seeing a lot of that now. And you could see a lot more of that in the future, as, as some of those different groups start to get more involved. And I think the approval of MDMA is probably going to be a big catalyst for some of those groups to start to get a lot more actively involved in the space.

RS: I mean, it's interesting. I guess, I've thought of this before, but you talking about kind of the broad picture of healthcare, it makes -- and also your earlier point to the limitations of calling it the psychedelic sector and hearing some of the clips or reading some of the clinical trials and what's coming out from the data in terms of the emotional side of healthcare that is mostly untouched, up until now. And that angle of things and really thinking about healthcare, as it's developing with psychedelics, with cannabis and thinking of it as all of these things under one umbrella, which is healthcare. I guess, is that how you see the whole thing developing?

PN: Yeah, I think we're coming back to looking at healthcare. And unfortunately, this is a term that's gotten very muddied. But we're looking at things a little more holistically than, than we have in the past where we've tried to isolate and fragment healthcare. We've now seen that there needs to be a more holistic approach to how we treat people. People struggling with even using my own story as an example, while I was struggling with chronic pain that was not simply just a physiological issue that I was happening. There was mental health aspects that were very, very much a part of that as well.

And I think we even see that and we see this in particular, an interesting example is the work that we do out of our neurology center, where people are coming in with, they will be called functional neurological disorders, but people with epilepsy or things like that, or seizures where it might be looked at as a physiological issue, but it's actually it's both a mental health and a physical health issue. And you have to be able to treat them both in conjunction with one another and not separate them, or else you're not going to see the effects that you're looking for.

RS: Yeah, it's like mental health is health psychedelics are medicine? Yeah. Yeah. We are in real time developing all of these new found ways of understanding. It's exciting to be a part of. How do you see this next year developing in terms of, I mean, you spoke to the catalysts, you spoke to these upcoming points of light in the industry, in terms of investors looking at the space, how would you advise, or how do you think that investors are going to find the next, let's say, six months or so?

PN: I think we're just at the tail end of this consolidation period. I think for investors looking at the space you've got to look at companies either with strong balance sheets, if it's drug development, it is expensive, and it is a longer term kind of investment that you're looking at. But obviously the return is large, if you can cut it out and make those decisions, or if you're looking for something a little bit more, maybe tracking alongside where the psychedelic space is at on the service provider side.

Again, looking at who's been able to build models that have shown effectiveness and sustainability and can really and obviously, I'm speaking from the Numinus standpoint, but the thing that we're extremely excited about is we've been able to build this model and show a path to profitability, without any approved psychedelics outside of MDMA. Once more of those approvals come on board, we've now got a model that is extremely sustainable on its own, and we will only greatly benefit from any of these approval of different psychedelic compounds that we're now seeing within the next 12 months.

So it's an exciting time, I would say, for investors really, really do your homework, as always, and know that this space is very volatile, and probably will be for the next little bit. But with that opportunities is most certainly there. And if you zoom out and look at the problem that we're trying to solve, it's as I said at the top of our conversation, it's the largest problem, we believe out there at the moment, and there's no good solutions.

RS: What would you say, or would you say, what are the risks to kind of the bullishness in the industry? Would you say that they are company's specific? Or would you say that there are risks to be had in the industry? Like, let's say these trials don't pan out the way we think they will?

PN: Anytime you're at the mercy of regulation changes the risk, there's no question about it. I think a lot of those risks have probably been mitigated now. I think a lot of it is more on the kind of organizational level. And I think that's kind of figured itself out as well. I think as we move forward again, there is going to be volatility, there's going to be good stories, there's going to be challenging stories that come out.

I think the space from what I've experienced a couple years ago, when things were going crazy from a capital markets perspective was there was also just a real lack of education in regards to what is this space? And where are the opportunities and what does psychedelic therapy even require or look like? And I think over the last couple of years, that education has finally caught up to where the opportunity is, and I think that's, that's a very exciting time for the space.

RS: Yeah. In terms of developing our understanding and educating ourselves and educating the consumers and the public, what are your thoughts on -- especially in the investing world, there's some different thoughts on this. What are your thoughts on how the recreational side if you see a recreational side developing and how you see that developing and maybe your thoughts on micro-dosing also if you want to share?

PN: Yeah, I don't know, if we ever necessarily land at least in the short term around a recreational model. I think if you look at what's happened in regards to approval in Oregon and now Colorado, it's certainly increased accessibility. But it's still anchored and centered around therapy and mental health support.

Do I believe that human beings should be able to -- as long as they're not harming themselves or other people? Should they be able to explore their own consciousness? Absolutely. But similarly, I think it's a pretty privileged and naive standpoint to say that someone's suffering with severe PTSD or depression, to go to them and just say oh, you should be able to just explore your own consciousness, they probably can't even fathom that. They want to go -- they're suffering and they need not only clinical support or robust -- yeah, robust clinical support, but also the opportunities to have insurance coverage, and some of these different things that happen through more drug approvals.

So I think I think both avenues are important and necessary. But I also, my concerns are if you look everywhere in sort of pop culture, psychedelics are everybody I know is micro-dosing these days, and while I'm glad that it's helping people, these are very, very powerful tools. And a hammer is a tool and a hammer can be used to build a house or a hammer can be used to hit yourself in the hand with -- depending on who's swinging it. And I think we, we just need to be very cautious. And also we need to watch expectations. These are not magic pills, and they're not going to work for everybody.

They certainly work well for, we continue to see quite a number of people, but it's not going to be for everybody. And the importance of well trained facilitators, and a well educated and thorough offering is going to be extremely necessary in order to meet the expectations of so many people that are very, very excited about the space.

RS: Do you think at all, or do you worry at all about the popularity of things like micro-dosing or the press coverage of it, let's say, do you feel like that ever detracts from the seriousness or the clinical data side of the industry?

PN: I think at times it can maybe confuse people. That's definitely something we see quite a bit of. I think it confuses people in regards to what is the difference between psychedelic therapy and micro-dosing and what is psychedelic therapy. So I would love to see -- and we're seeing it now, I'd love to see a little bit more clinical evidence for psychedelic therapy, or for micro-dosing, sorry. We haven't seen much in the way of clinical trials.

But I do know firsthand, and with people extremely close to me that micro-dosing has been really life changing for them. But I think we probably need to see a little bit more clinical evidence for that. And what I would like to see out of that is not clinical evidence in the sense of, is it effective or not effective? But what are best practices? Or how do you even determine what is the appropriate dosing and dosing regimen for a person? And frankly that's where things got quite challenging in medical cannabis, was there was really no clinical trial work that was done in cannabis and the kind of recreational side took off and went the way that it did.

And we might have missed, frankly getting a better understanding of how cannabis can really be used to help people and so my hope is that that doesn't get overshadowed in the psychedelic space.

RS: Yeah, yeah. Amen. Anecdata is strong, clinical data should be stronger. Yes.

PN: Absolutely.

RS: Speaking to access, another question I want, we can kind of end here, another question I wanted to ask in regards to access is your deal with iFinance and trying to open it up to people that might not have the financial accessibility to it. Can you speak about the deal and the thought behind it and how you came to that?

PN: Yeah. It's really just trying to provide as many options for people as possible. If you think about psychedelic therapy, and the costs associated with it, I would say there -- and you hear this term all the time, like psychedelic therapy is like doing 10 years of therapy in one session. I would say that that is maybe true from an impact or catalyst perspective. There still is very much the need for ongoing integration support.

But from a financial perspective, it's a more condensed financial commitment upfront, which is hard sometimes for people to put that kind of money together to be able to go through one of these experiences. And so we've looked at many different models, as I mentioned, our ketamine therapy now, about 80% of it gets covered under insurance. We've got multiple insurance providers who support with that. We also have corporate partners who pay for their employees to get ketamine therapy as well. And the iFinance deal is just kind of another opportunity for that as we move towards more and more different models of accessibility.

So I think that's very important. I think the accessibility conversation also is an interesting one, in that it's not just financial accessibility, but also when you talk about things like training, how do you ensure that different communities or people coming from different walks of life are also getting accessible care as well? It's hard to expect that someone who is trained in a certain kind of trauma can also work with someone who might have sexual trauma or racial trauma, where the therapist hasn't necessarily experienced that.

So all of our therapists get cultural safety and humility training, and, and are able to offer a more diverse amount of support for people with many different experiences that have brought them to psychedelic therapy.

RS: In terms of the training, are you doing that in house? Who's developing that?

PN: Yeah, we do it in house. And that's been a huge aspect of what Numinus has continued to build and create. And for us, we really see, frankly the recruitment of practitioners and the training of practitioners is really extremely paramount at the moment. You can have every drug approved under the sun, but if you don't have people who can offer it in a in a well experienced way, you're just going to be sitting there with stockpiles of drugs with nowhere for them to go to support people.

RS: Yeah. Is that something that you're looking to, like make propriety -- I don't know if proprietary is the right word. But make it kind of strong enough that other companies are looking to you in terms of training?

PN: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

RS: Got it. And in terms of the iFinance deal, was that -- did you look around for many partners? Did you know who you wanted to partner with? Were you concerned at all about taking on a partner there?

PN: So definitely not concerned? There's been lots of opportunities around partnership in regards to financial support. But it really -- it takes time and for us we -- because we've been working with these medicines for such a long period of time, and because our infrastructure around clinical trials and the kind of diversity of work that we're doing is we do have -- we provide those different financial partners with quite a lot of confidence and insurance as they're looking to financially support different groups.

RS: Got it? Well, Payton, thanks for taking so much time with us and getting so deep into the things. Is there anything that you feel like we forgot, or that we would be wise to remind investors or that you want to share with investors or listeners?

PN: No, I think this has been great. As I said, this year in particular is a very, very big one for the space. It will continue to be volatile. But again, if you look at the massive issue that we're trying to help solve, and look at the clinical trial data that continues to be really astounding. And for anybody who hasn't read it, I really encourage people to go and take a look at the MAPS results from their Phase 3a clinical trials for post-traumatic stress disorder. The opportunity is huge and needed now more than ever before.

RS: Awesome. Where can they find out more about Numinus?

PN: Yeah, you can go to our website numinus.com . And there's lots of education there not just on the company but on the different therapies as well.

RS: Awesome. Thank you so much, Payton. I appreciate it. And I hope you'll come on again and update us with how things are going.

PN: Would love to. Thanks so much for having me.

RS: Thank you, sir. Bye.

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